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Hello everyone, this is Howard Fox, and welcome back for another episode of the Outdoor Adventure Series, the podcast that celebrates individuals and families, businesses, and organizations that seek out and promote the exploration, stewardship, conservation, access, and enjoyment of the outdoors.
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Teresa Bergen is our guest today.
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Teresa is a travel writer and a longtime sober person who helps others in recovery see the world without picking up a drink.
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She is also the author of the newly published book, Sober Travel Handbook, Navigating the World Alcohol Free.
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Teresa, it's a pleasure to have you on the podcast.
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Welcome.
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Hi, Howard.
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Thanks so much for having me.
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I'm a big outdoors enthusiast as well, so I'm excited to be on your show.
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I love that.
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And I have to share, while I host the outdoor adventure series podcast, I do not get outdoors and explore as much as some of my guests do.
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And as I was researching for this uh episode today, I'm thinking this woman really gets out there and is going to some exciting places.
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And and I also have to share, I it was not lost on me that you were kayaking on the Chicago River.
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Good for you.
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I I'm originally from Chicago, but Chicago's beautiful and it's so fun.
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Next time you get back there, you got to go kayak on it.
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I think that would be uh something definitely to do.
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The last time I was on a kayak, I literally was pushed out onto the water and tipped over.
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So I don't I I so I I have this feeling, but in any case, this is all about you today because I want to hear all about you.
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First off, where are you located?
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Well, right now I live in Portland, Oregon.
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I've been here since the year 2000, and places I've lived before include um California, various parts of California, and also a couple of places in Louisiana.
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Okay.
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Now, have you always been an outdoor enthusiast?
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Because you, again, you've gone to some really fantastic places, and for our listeners, we're going to take a tour of Teresa's website in a little bit, and you'll see some of her destinations.
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But how did you begin to get the first off the the love of the outdoors and being an outdoor enthusiast, and then the travel bug of actually taking this passion to the four corners of the earth?
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Well, it's funny, and I want readers to, I mean, listeners, I I'm such a writer, I'm always thinking of readers.
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Readers, writers, talkers, walkers.
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We got it all.
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I want everybody to know this because I was a much more of an artsy person when I was younger, and my love of the outdoors has grown as I've gotten older.
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So I want people to know just because you're not in your 20s anymore, doesn't mean you can't start doing outdoorsy stuff.
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That said, one of my earliest outdoor activities as a little child was I wanted to be an entomologist and I was fascinated with bugs.
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So I was always out in the backyard catching bugs and observing bugs and reading the golden book of insects with my mom.
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My favorite with the praying mantis.
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Okay.
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Now, were you the the class nerd in school, always looking and playing with bugs?
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Or um, I wouldn't say I was the nerd, but I was always a little bit offbeat.
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Okay, okay.
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I always had different interests, and I was always pursuing my interests.
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Okay.
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Now, when you were uh a child, where were you?
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Were you first off?
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I'm thinking New Orleans, Louisiana, there's big bugs down there.
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A lot of bugs.
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Yeah, I encountered them later, but I grew up in San Diego.
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Oh, okay.
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That's there's no bugs there, maybe just uh lots of bugs.
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Yeah, you in the yard.
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You had to, but sometimes you have to go looking for them.
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Like I had a pet lizard for a long time that one of our cats brought in and and I rescued.
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And my mom and I spent many bonding moments going out and turning over rocks, trying to catch bugs to bring inside to feed to the lizard in his terrarium, live bugs, so he could hunt them in the terrarium.
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I love that.
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I love that.
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And I'm curious, as you were uh getting older, when did where did you uh type of a background training education did you have?
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A lot of writing.
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So I I am a writer and I have an undergraduate degree in journalism and a master's degree in fiction writing.
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So I've always been interested in other stuff too, but I'd say I was more in the humanities with writing and history and English and social sciences, and not nearly as strong in math or science.
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Although I wish I had applied myself more to those subjects when I was younger.
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Uh I I sometimes I wish I had, I just don't ever think I had the science bug in me because I always wanted to be a doctor, but uh that was I think I'm in addition to podcasting and coach, I'm a coach, leadership development coach, and uh that that fits very well.
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But sometimes we don't get to where we want to be until later in life.
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And uh but it's good that you you discovered that love of writing uh at an early age.
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Now you I know you've written a number of books, and again, we'll we'll visit a couple of those on your website, but what what was the kind of like the the journey to writing this book about sober travel and this this this need for this handbook?
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What what compelled you to want to write this kind of a book?
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So I had trouble with alcohol and other substances from a young age.
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And fortunately, I was able to quit really young.
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I quit I quit everything when I was only 20.
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I stopped drinking before I was even legal because I had a problem with it.
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And that has allowed me to have like a whole adult life to not be stuck in addiction.
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So I've been really, really fortunate that way to have a problem early, identify it early and get out of it.
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And a lot of that is thanks to I had a really nice family who helped me and supported me.
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But okay, so I had that background of being a longtime sober person, and then I've also been travel writing professionally for about 15 years.
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Okay, so those things kind of converge because so much of travel emphasizes alcohol because that's just the norm in our culture is to drink.
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People assume you drink unless you tell them otherwise.
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And so as I was uh traveling as a travel writer, which sometimes I was traveling on my own, sometimes I was on press trips with other groups, with groups of other travel writers and um PR kind of people, there was just such an emphasis on the drinking.
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And so people were always like, Oh, I'm a wine writer.
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Oh, I write about craft beer, and we were always going on these tours to these wineries and stuff where I'm like, la, I'm not gonna pay any attention because I don't drink stuff.
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But it was kind of a handicap for a long time as a travel writer.
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But then I just thought about turning it around.
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So I started announcing to people when they said they were a wine writer, I'd say, Well, I write about sober travel.
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I had no idea what that entailed.
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I just started saying that to try to switch it around so I wasn't at a disadvantage.
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So I've been writing more about travel through a sober lens for maybe the last eight or nine years, and then started to think about maybe there's a book in this about four years ago.
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Okay.
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And how do you inform or help the individuals that are that are wanted to travel and explore and and I do get that alcohol is is heavily involved, but how do you help them navigate when they're in a social situation, they are in an exotic place, and I'm not gonna drink.
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And and and like for me, I just to share this, I I I'm really not a drinker.
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I love a beer, I like a glass of wine every once in a while, but I just don't drink, it's just not something I do.
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And so it's easier for me to have a glass of seltzer water, soda water with a lemon or lime in it, and I'm good.
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Nobody will ever know.
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But how do you help someone who perhaps they can't they have a similar story, a journey that you've had?
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They want to travel, they want to get out there.
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How do you help them?
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What advice would you have for them to navigate this little hurdle so that they can have a good time?
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Well, you make a really good point.
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There's lots of people who are kind of take it or leave it drinkers like you are.
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So this might not be something they've thought of because it just isn't part of their own experience.
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But for people who have had some kind of a drinking problem, especially in quit, then lots of times they're able to make a safe space at home.
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They have like a regular routine, they have people that they see in their everyday lives that support them being sober.
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And so they feel real safe there, but then they get scared at the idea of venturing beyond that because uh, for one thing, when you go somewhere else and nobody knows you, it's like, oh, I could be anyone, I could do different things.
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So I advise people who are who are going to travel for the first time without drinking to first of all have a good support system.
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And your support system starts at home.
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So have people at home that you're gonna check in with.
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So they know you're going here, they know you're having these thoughts about like, oh, what if people try to get me to drink?
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So it's it's important to check in with people back home that will support you.
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Um support people in person too where you're going, that is also an excellent thing, but that doesn't always happen.
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And how do you bridge that that little gap of uh I'm there, I mean solo traveling.
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I mean, I I'm I'm I'm a solo traveler uh when I'm not going to like an association meeting, but how do you bridge that gap when you are but you have a nice Moscow mule mug there?
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I that's not that's not lost on me.
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Oh, isn't this funny?
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I just I didn't even know this was a mock-down mule when I first got it.
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I really like drinking out of copper, and I think it's so beautiful.
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And so I drink my water out of this all the time.
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And I had I didn't even know until I I guess I think I saw one somewhere.
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I'm like, oh, it's a special drink, it's a special cup for special drink.
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I I I think so that's cute.
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Now, okay, in all seriousness though, uh the reason I know that by the way, when I the the roommate and their boyfriend, they're they're into their whatever they're into.
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One of those is the Moscow mule, and she brings out the the mugs.
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Oh, isn't that cute?
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In any case, what's the what techniques or advice would you give for the traveler?
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They're maybe they're the solo traveler, they don't have that support system with them on site.
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What advice would you give to them for helping to navigate, which in my mind it's an easy subject.
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Thank you, but I I I really don't drink.
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However, how what advice would you give to someone who perhaps hasn't been able to articulate and feel comfortable saying I don't drink?
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Practice it ahead of time.
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There are a lot of ways to say it, and you don't owe anybody an explanation unless you feel like giving them.
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You can just say, no, no, thank you.
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If you feel like you really have to give an excuse, you can think of some ahead of time.
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And it can be just something like, oh, it doesn't make me feel very good, or I have an early morning, or it doesn't lots of times it doesn't respond well with them, it doesn't interact well with the medication.
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I mean, you can tell them the truth or you can make something on.
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It doesn't really matter just to keep yourself safe here.
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Or you could say, no, I'm driving.
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There's a lot of and you again, you don't have to give them any explanation, but if it's gonna make you feel more comfortable to give them a short one, just make it short.
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Don't start telling them your life story.
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Sure.
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And I I love the fact that you don't owe anybody an explanation.
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It could be thank you very much, but I'm gonna pass this evening or tomorrow or for this trip, etc.
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What when you are at a an event, is that any different for you?
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And the reason I ask is as a professional writer, travel writer, you probably get to go to a lot of like professional events where it's networking, there's liquor is everywhere.
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Well, are there any different kinds of challenges there versus say you're just traveling from you're in Rome or Bangkok or Sydney and there's liquor and you're saying no, versus say at this organized big event.
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How is that any different?
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Well, some of it is mental because um sometimes I think people care more about whether I drink or not than they really do.
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And I'll start to get this resentment like, oh, everybody else is friends because they're drinking.
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Everybody else is making this deal because they're drinking.
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And that's on me.
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I have to kind of shift my head around and be like, they're doing their thing, I'm doing mine.
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Maybe we're gonna be friends, maybe we're not, but I don't have to, I don't have to drink just because they are.
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And I'm as I become more public about being sober because I'm doing this work and I'm telling people I've been sober travel, I've met so many people who don't drink.
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And some of them are in recovery, but a lot of them have other reasons they don't drink.
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And some of them are at those professional meetings with me.
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And it's really nice when I identify them.
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And I know there's some other people around who also are drinking.
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But before I started developing this area of work, I didn't realize that.
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And I did feel kind of sometimes it was easy to get in this kind of pattern of, oh, feeling sorry for my oh, for me, I'm different because of this or that.
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And again, that's kind of an artificial mindset.
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It's not usually the truth.
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And if someone really does care that I'm not drinking, it's usually because they're wondering about their own drinking.
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It doesn't really reflect on me.
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I'm curious, and I certainly do not know the answer to this.
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And there's there's a lot of cultures where being invited into a home is a part is is a part of their their upbringing, their DNA.
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And do you ever find or have you ever crossed a circumstance where you were invited into a home and say, you know, food was being served, you're breaking bread, some type of alcohol, whatever it was was being offered.
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How do you say no in those instances instances when uh a cultural fall paw is a possibility?
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Yeah, this is kind of a nightmare for me because even worse in these situations than not drinking is that I'm also vegan.
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So that is like my nightmare.
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And it's and sometimes I plan around that.
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Like there's places I'm not gonna go or I'm not gonna do a home stay because I know I'm gonna offend people.
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So I kind of look into that.
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And sometimes if you really think you're gonna be in that situation, try not to get into it.
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And if you are with its alcohol, I mean, for especially for people who have had a problem with it, that's like life or death.
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I mean, I have I have had some shy before with milk in it because someone offered it to me.
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And I'm like vegan, I it's a preference, it's not gonna kill me.
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But the alcohol, I'm definitely gonna draw the line and I'm gonna say, um, I might just say I have an allergy, which is kind of true in a way.
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Like if you, if you, if the drinking produces really bad behavior in you, you have like a history of that happening.
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I mean, we can call that an allergy.
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It's not it's not an outright lie, but I would probably say something like that.
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Like, I really can't drink.
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Or you can also say it's your religion, because people respect that lots of times.
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And there are religions that discourage or forbid drinking.
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Not that everybody always obeys it, but there are religions.
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So you could say one of those things.
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You could say you have an allergy, you could say you have a medical interaction, you could say you have that your religion forbids it.
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Okay.
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And I mean, you're in in Portland now, it's you're fairly close to some good wine country.
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And do you do you ever get invited or uh have been invited with the friends?
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Hey, we're going out to the vineyards and come on with us.
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There's a lot to see and do, and hopefully eat.
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I d I never say no to food unless it's something incredibly exotic.
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Like that's not, I don't want anything to do with it.
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But if if I'm traveling, say to with my friends and family, obviously I have my support system, but we're in a place that a vineyard I can't help but want to smell the aroma, taste, take a sip.
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How do we handle that type of situation?
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It really depends on what kind of non-drinker you are.
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So if you're a non-drinker because you just don't like alcohol, or maybe it's religious or medical interaction and you're not going to feel overly tempted, just go drink something else.
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All the wineries have really good food.
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Vineyards are beautiful.
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So sure, go with them.
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If you're someone who's in recovery, I would only go if I felt really secure.
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If I was newly in recovery, I'd be like, ah, give it a pass.
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I'll do something else with you another day.
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You have to sort of figure out what's for me and what's not for me.
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I recently went to an event.
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It was a dry January event at a local winery, um, or like an hour away from me in the Willamette Valley.
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It was very interesting.
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It was like a different sort of thing for me.
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And they had all these de-alcoholized wines.
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It was very odd.
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But I participated, it was kind of interesting.
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Um, and I think more wineries are making their own de-alcoholized wines now.
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So I would call ahead if I was gonna go and make sure there was something for me.
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And some of them will even let you bring your own drink if you're a non-drinker who's going with a group of people wine tasting.
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That sounds a little weird, but if you really want to go and participate, but again, if you're feeling kind of iffy and you're in recovery, just skip it.
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Okay.
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So I've got one last question, and then I'd love to take us to the website just to the so we can learn more about your work.
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And I know my listeners would appreciate that as well.
00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:21.839
If I'm out traveling, exotic location, alcohol is there, and maybe I I'm feeling like I just I'm getting I'm in the moment with my friends, these new acquaintances, and I'd have that sip.
00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:24.079
Is that the worst thing that can happen?
00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:28.799
Is this a sip or is there something do I really need to be attuned to?
00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:31.279
Like, I just did something I know I shouldn't have done.
00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:36.319
If you're in recovery, I would say do not take that sip.
00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:37.839
And if you do, stop.
00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:42.799
If you're just someone who doesn't, I mean, I don't know what to say.
00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:46.799
If you're if it's your religion, that's on you, or if you have a medication interaction.
00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:50.319
But if you consider yourself in recovery, yeah, leave before that happens.
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:55.119
If you're feeling like it's too slippery, then just call it a day.
00:18:55.359 --> 00:18:58.000
But don't I I would advise you not to take that sip.
00:18:58.079 --> 00:19:00.880
And if you somehow do, try to stop yourself.
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:04.160
Don't just say, oh, screw it, because that's sometimes happens.
00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:07.119
There's something called the abstinence violation effect.
00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:17.519
And it's if you if you've been like say you've been sober for 10 years, and then you take a sip, you're like, oh, I just ruined my 10 years, I might as well just get drunk.
00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:23.599
That's not gonna serve you when I'm so if you do take a sip, like it's there have been a couple of times I've accidentally taken a sip.
00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:31.279
One time I was served, I I ordered uh like a sparkling apple juice and they gave me a hard cider instead.
00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:36.240
And I took a sip and I was like, and I I just sort of like backwashed it in the glass.
00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:41.279
I was with some other travel writers and I said, Oh my god, I think that was a hard cider.
00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:42.400
And what do they do?
00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:46.000
They just start passing it around, being like, Oh yeah, it is.
00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:52.480
And I'm thinking, one, I just accidentally sipped something alcohol, and two, now they're all drinking my backwash.
00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:59.119
So unfortunately, I was just able to stop and I and I just I said, Forget, don't even bring me the spit to the apple juice.
00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:00.160
I'm just gonna drink water.
00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:02.720
I can see this is water, I can smell this is water.
00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:05.359
Yeah, so it's gotta rain it in if you screw up.
00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:14.160
Okay, and yeah, and give yourself a little grace and like you, mistake, and I'm aware of it now.
00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:28.640
All right, so I would love to, Teresa, if you're okay, is just let's take a tour of the website because I want to I want to talk more about the book and how it's been organized, but I really want to show my listeners some of the great work that you're doing as well.
00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:30.240
Okay, all right.
00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:32.640
Now, hopefully, technology works.
00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:33.759
That's always a pleasure to do it.
00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:37.440
I don't think I'm a writer, but I'm not a pro website designer.
00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:40.240
So I have a pretty rudimentary website that I do myself.
00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:42.319
It's not it's not superficially.
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:43.440
It's pretty good.
00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:47.759
So Veg Travel and Fitness, and we're at Teresa Bergen.com.
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:50.400
First off, where should we go to find the book?
00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:51.279
Let's go take a look.
00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:52.559
Books by Teresa.
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:54.559
Yeah, that's I'm I'm peering at it here.
00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:55.440
Yeah, that's it.
00:20:55.839 --> 00:20:56.079
Okay.
00:20:57.119 --> 00:20:57.920
Go there first.
00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:01.680
Silver travel handbook.
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:03.519
And I love the photo.
00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:04.880
Is this your photo?
00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:06.799
No, my publisher put that on.
00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:08.160
It's really pretty, isn't it?
00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:09.200
Yeah, I love that.
00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:11.839
I'm a big water person, so it's the kind of thing I like.
00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:16.240
And you're near water too, so it's uh not too bad.
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:24.319
So, how is this book organized and what will the reader expect when they open this up?
00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:30.240
Well, the primary audience is people in recovery, and then the secondary audience is all non-drinkers.
00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:39.039
So there's some stuff that speaks especially to people in recovery, and then there's some more general stuff for what to do if you're a non-drinker and you're doing different kinds of stuff.
00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:42.079
So I have it right here, and let me just look at the table of contents.
00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:47.759
So we have we talk about what is sober travel and who are these sober travelers.
00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:55.519
And then there's a lot of uh tips for various kinds of events you might find yourself in and how to avoid drinking at them.
00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:59.680
And then there's also lots of stuff about different places you might.
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:06.640
Go where alcohol isn't the center or different kinds of activities you might want to do instead of drinking.
00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:07.119
Okay.
00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:21.680
I'm gonna know a lot of outdoorsy stuff because that is one of uh my favorite things is if you do outdoorsy stuff, um, sometimes there's alcohol involved, but it's not usually the center of it, especially if you're doing something like swimming or snorkeling or diving.
00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:23.839
Very hard to drink while you're scuba diving.
00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:24.640
Exactly.
00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:28.799
There was a um the kayaking is coming to mind.
00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:35.119
I I was doing a podcast series with Gulf Shores and Orange Beach tourism a couple years ago.
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:45.839
And I think at Orange Beach had a kayak tour they would take guest on, and you would take your paper and uh well no, I take the back.
00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:47.039
They gave you everything you needed.
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:54.480
It was basically watercoloring in a kayak out on the water, okay, in one of the inlets.
00:22:54.880 --> 00:23:04.960
And I would, as you were sharing that, I'm thinking, uh, yeah, you kayaking definitely, I know for me, definitely don't want to have a glass of anything, maybe with a water bottle.
00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:10.400
But I was once in a kayak and it was a double kayak, and the woman behind me was was steering.
00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:20.720
I was up front, and and she was with the paddle, I was the muscle, and she wanted to hand me her camera and say, Would you take a picture?
00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:25.599
And I said, Nope, I'm not taking your camera while I am in a kayak.
00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:31.680
Because I don't want to be the cause of an accident or kayak is at the bottom of the of the inlet.
00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:41.039
So uh, but certainly that with uh with uh any type of uh beverage, uh just you want to stay safe.
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:43.119
Well, very nice.
00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:46.079
And some of your other work that's here, what do we have?
00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:47.279
Historic cemeteries.
00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:49.200
Look at the big cemetery buff.
00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:56.000
And I wrote that with my friend Heidi during the pandemic because we figured it was pretty safe to be in cemeteries where uh everybody was already dead.
00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:56.960
There you go.
00:23:57.119 --> 00:23:58.799
I love it, I love it.
00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:01.119
Transcribing oral history.
00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:02.960
That's a whole different branch of my life.
00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:06.319
That's I also work in oral history, doesn't have any good battle.
00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:15.200
But here'll be the one is more relevant, probably, to your listeners because this uh this book has a hundred easy outdoor things to do around the Portland area.
00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:16.319
Oh, I love it.
00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:18.559
That's a very big popular genre.
00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:21.279
There's a hundred things to do somewhere before you die.
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:23.119
That's what the series is called.
00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:24.000
But I like that.
00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:31.200
Is also the one I'm working on right now, is totally playing off that, and it's called 100 Places to Visit Sober.
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:32.960
Very nice.
00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:34.400
Very nice.
00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:38.160
And you're also uh a yogi, yeah, yoga teacher.
00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:44.240
That was I wrote that as tried to be kind of a basic intro to yoga philosophy.
00:24:44.319 --> 00:24:57.039
And I I was teaching a lot in gyms at the time, and people wanted the flexibility, the de-stressing, and a little the philosophy to improve their lives, but it wasn't like they wanted it wasn't like they wanted to learn Sanskrit or something.
00:24:57.119 --> 00:25:01.119
So I tried to just sort of distill it down to easy to understand stuff.
00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:03.119
Very nice, very nice.
00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:08.960
And how has the reaction been to the to the uh sober travel handbook?
00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:11.599
Oh, well, right now I'm I'm having a good time.
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:16.000
I've been doing a book tour going to sober bars.
00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:22.000
So I don't know if you're familiar with sober bars, but they've been popping up around the country and in some other countries too.
00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:28.480
So these are gathering places that feature non-alcoholic drinks and they're for people who want to hang out without drinking.
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:31.759
And they may or may not be people who don't drink at all.
00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:45.680
Maybe they just want um some quiet time with friends and not in a drunken bar, or maybe either people that are pregnant, or also maybe a first date and they don't want to be getting drunk, they want to get to know each other, plus people who don't drink.
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:48.720
So I've been going to some different sober bars and doing events.
00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:56.400
I was in San Diego last week and I did a short talk about my book, and then we also did a travel trivia contest, which was really fun.
00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:57.519
Oh, very nice.
00:25:57.680 --> 00:26:03.839
I mean, that those types of events that would interest me just to be in a bar and know I didn't have to have to drink.
00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:10.720
So a little so we got the the outdoor uh and fitness, and I'm gonna talk a little bit about the vegan.
00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:11.839
So so where did I see?
00:26:12.079 --> 00:26:12.960
Oh, yeah, there you go.
00:26:13.119 --> 00:26:16.000
Kayak, Chicago, and the Chicago River.
00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:20.720
That was so cool because Chicago is known for its architecture, right?
00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:22.480
And it all springs up around the river.
00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:23.039
So it's fun.
00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:28.319
I've picked an architectural boat tour, too, which is which is great, but it's so fun to be on a kayak.
00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:32.720
You're just like down there in the water and you're looking up at these massive skyscrapers.
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:33.759
Really recommended.
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:38.799
I had a I had a kayak guy named Will, Will Nelson, and he was fantastic.
00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:42.880
He told me all about the history of Chicago, and he knew all about the nature too.
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:44.240
Oh, very good.
00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:51.039
The I mean, and that river, I lived in Chicago like almost almost half my life.
00:26:51.119 --> 00:27:07.680
It at one point it was half my life, but that river has gone through a a huge change since the early 90s of getting it cleaned up and making that whole wall, all the river accessible and just taking advantage of being actually being on it.
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:14.640
And I do recall seeing kayakers, uh, but when those big tour boats go by, they they cause the wake.
00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:16.240
I don't know if I want to be there at that point.
00:27:16.640 --> 00:27:18.960
Well, it's exciting, they go fast, yeah.
00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:20.799
And then they go really fast.
00:27:20.960 --> 00:27:26.480
You feel it, and you have to just can't kind of hug the hug the edge of the river so you don't get run over.
00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:27.279
Sure.
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:43.599
Now, as a sober traveler, when you are out either for your own pleasure or producing your own content, or even I guess producing content for a client, where are some of the places you have enjoyed visiting the most?
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:49.039
Oh, well, as far as the sober part, uh, a lot of outdoorsy places.
00:27:49.119 --> 00:27:53.359
So, like I got a chance to go to raft the Grand Canyon a couple of years ago.
00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:55.759
My husband got to come too, and it was fabulous.
00:27:55.920 --> 00:28:00.240
We went, I think it was 180 miles of the Colorado River in a week.
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:08.160
So there were a few people that brought some beer along, but when you're getting up at 5:30 in the morning and rafting all day, it's not like you want to be really drunk.
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:13.200
So it was pretty minimal drinking and was all about the nature and the rafting and the family fun.
00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:18.319
So that was one, and then also I've enjoyed going places where there's just not a lot of alcohol.
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:27.039
Like I had a really good time when I went to Jordan and I got to see the the Wadi Rum Desert and the famous city of Petra and stuff like that.
00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:31.119
That was really cool, and hardly anybody drinks in Jordan because it's mostly Muslim.
00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:32.400
Right, right.
00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:35.920
Uh I'm noticing here the kayaking the Ottawa River.
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:38.400
I I do a podcast with a gentleman.
00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:40.480
We do like two episodes a month.
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:54.559
He's an expert in a uh technology solutions or international standards, but he goes ice skating with his wife on on the on the Ottawa River.
00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:55.680
Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:57.759
That's what they do, and that's what they do in the winter.
00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:01.200
I was just there last year, uh, when was it?
00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:06.720
It was either August or September, and you could still kayak and you could still swim.
00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:12.240
So they have this fabulous like river swimming pool that you can go in in the summer.
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:17.039
It's like they have floating piers that mark off a rectangle, but it's really part of the river.
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:20.960
It's kind of trippy because you you sort of feel like you're in a pool, but there could be fish too.
00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:21.599
Sure.
00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:22.880
It's really nice.
00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:24.480
Yeah, I love the Ottawa River.
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:26.079
That's a fun place to visit.
00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:26.880
Definitely.
00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:29.359
Well, there's there's actually good coffee shops up there.
00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:35.440
That's my I would say my uh I wouldn't call it a weakness, I call it a passion.
00:29:35.519 --> 00:29:36.079
I love coffee.
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:38.559
But me, no, no, I drink a lot of good coffee.
00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:40.079
Yes, but I'm in Fortnite.
00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:41.680
We have to drink coffee here.
00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:44.240
Yeah, and life is too short to drink bad coffee.
00:29:44.319 --> 00:29:45.359
So for sure.
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:50.400
Now, I just noticed this you were mentioned earlier about being a vegan.
00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:54.079
So new Danner N45 vegan hiking boots.
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:56.240
So let me just go ahead and click on that.
00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:59.920
So tell us about a little bit more about the vegan lifestyle.
00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:08.960
So I've just been an animal lover my whole life, and I don't like to, when I was about 12, I realized I didn't want to eat animals.
00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:15.440
So I've been vegetarian or vegan for my whole adult life and a lot of my childhood too.
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:25.519
So I try not to uh I try not to buy meat, although I have to say I am a slave to my cat, and so I still support the meat industry that way, which I wish I didn't.
00:30:25.599 --> 00:30:32.079
I'm hoping that there'll be a time when they have the lab-grown meat that they can make pet food and it's cheap enough that I can give them that.
00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:41.599
So I do my best not to contribute to the meat industry, but like I say, I have a weakness for my cat, and so I am far, far, far from perfect.
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:42.319
Okay.
00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:53.200
Now, my the roommate and her boyfriend, they they're they've I think the cat has trained them very well, but they get little pieces of shrimp cut up every day.
00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:57.920
And if she doesn't have her shrimp, she starts crying by her dish.
00:30:58.160 --> 00:30:59.119
I don't know.
00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:01.200
Yeah, the cat deserved the best.
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:05.440
My cat, he had a he had a blockage, a urinary blockage a year or so ago.
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:10.319
So now he's on a special diet, but he had to give him, yeah, I would have got him all the shrimp and stuff back then.
00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:12.319
But now he has to eat a special diet.
00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:13.119
Okay.
00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:19.359
Now, as far as your artwork is concerned, what's your passion there in terms of what you've produced?
00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:22.400
Is it for my is it for the art shows?
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:27.599
Is for for sale in stores and museums, or just a personal personal passion?
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:33.279
Oh, yeah, I paint, uh, I paint and I make some cards and I sell them in a couple local stores.
00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:34.000
It's a hobby.
00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:37.920
I sell a little bit, not a huge amount, but I mostly paint animal portraits.
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:40.160
So I pay paint people's pets mostly.
00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:41.440
Okay, very good.
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:49.200
Now, before we head back uh to just you and I chatting, yeah, is that so that's one of your photos or your your pieces of artwork is the cats.
00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:51.359
Yeah, a lot of cats.
00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:52.160
All right.
00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:56.720
My uh my uh roommate and a boyfriend are gonna love this episode when I share it with them.
00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:04.559
I saw I'll say I met this really wonderful cat lady, and she was also an author, but an artist and uh fitness expert.
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:09.279
Uh, anywhere else on the website you'd like us to visit before we head back?
00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:10.799
Oh, let's see.
00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:13.119
We're already looked at outdoors books.
00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:16.319
Oh, look at paddling in every state, real quick.
00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:16.960
That kind of fun.
00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:19.680
So that's a quest I've been on.
00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:23.599
I'm I'm trying to paddle in every US state and Canadian province.
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:26.720
And I am not like some super paddling woman.
00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:29.039
I'll just go out for a couple hours at a time.
00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:40.160
And this isn't I like kayaking and paddleboarding because they're pretty accessible for most people with a moderate level of fitness, like to just get out there and paddle just for an hour or two.
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:44.400
I'm not talking about going on some giant camping trip where you paddle for a week.
00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:48.160
So this is just something I took up not until I was, I guess, in my 40s.
00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:52.559
Um I'd just been um putting just a little blurb about each place.
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:54.559
I I'd get up in a different state.
00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:56.160
Oh, and that's some of my sub pups.
00:32:56.319 --> 00:32:58.880
I love taking pictures of dogs on paddleboards.
00:32:59.039 --> 00:32:59.599
I have a little color.
00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:00.240
I love it.
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:01.519
And these are just strangers.
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:03.920
I'm like, can I photograph you with your dogs?
00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:05.279
Very cool.
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:14.720
I would love to try the stand-up paddle board, but it'd have to be wide enough, so I would because once I start the shake, like, oh.
00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:26.000
So I have a uh an outdoor uh journalist colleague of mine who is an accomplished writer, and she wrote a book called So Said the River.
00:33:26.079 --> 00:33:29.119
It's about the Colorado River and her love affair with it.
00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:38.240
But she's also she took she and her mom took a trip to try to paddle down the Colorado River from.
00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:45.119
I can't remember exactly where the starting point was, but uh that was let's just say quite the adventure.
00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:48.160
But it's just it's just a wonderful way to explore.
00:33:48.319 --> 00:33:57.039
I know we're the Outdoor Writers Association of America, we're going up to Madison in August, and I know there will be some excursions.
00:33:57.119 --> 00:34:01.920
I'm sure one of them is gonna be out on the water, the lakes that are around Madison, probably sailing.
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:07.119
I'm just looking at the website today, and there's several different excursions that are gonna be water, I think.
00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:12.719
It looked like there was one even by Milwaukee that had said they were gonna dive a shipwreck in the lake.
00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:14.400
Yeah, it's possible.
00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:22.559
There is a there's a national marine sanctuary uh just north of Milwaukee, and there are shipwrecks all along that area.
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:23.840
I bet it's so cold though.
00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:26.639
I was looking at that, I'm thinking I want to do that, but I don't want to freeze.
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:32.559
Yeah, that well, yeah, it's you probably have a good uh wetsuit going, but it's kind of been a while since I've done that.
00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:34.400
Scuba, that looks like fun.
00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:37.920
See, that looks like a nice stable kayak right there.
00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:39.280
Oh, yeah, those are easy.
00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:41.760
Although there were waves because we were in La Jolla in California.
00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:43.119
That's my friend Claire Marie.
00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:46.000
When I go to San Diego, she's my kayaking buddy.
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:49.519
Okay, so now you have me curious here.
00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:50.559
Hang on.
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:51.920
Let's see.
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:53.599
There's Chicago.
00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:56.239
See, I knew that.
00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:58.159
See, I haven't lost my Chicago roots.
00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:02.400
All right, Michigan, that's where I grew up.
00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:03.760
Montana.
00:35:04.480 --> 00:35:05.760
Okay, I have to check this out.
00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:06.639
Have you been to Nevada?
00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:09.840
Okay, this is just a place where there's a lot of gaps.
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:12.239
There's like, yeah, just put all the states in as my.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:17.519
I've probably only been to about a third of them so far, and then maybe half the Canadian provinces.
00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:18.320
Okay.
00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:21.840
Well, you're yeah, I mean, like Nevada's like right around the block from you.
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:22.880
Jeez, come on.
00:35:23.119 --> 00:35:26.559
Down in Reno or someplace like that.
00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:32.320
So you could do the Colorado River above the above the Hoover Dam, you'd be in Nevada.
00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:33.199
Okay.
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:34.239
All right.
00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:37.280
Just saying, just saying, no, I'm not pressuring you here, Teresa.
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:37.599
Yeah.
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:38.400
All right.
00:35:38.559 --> 00:35:38.960
All right.
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:40.079
Well, this is very cool.
00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:43.039
And uh, I I just think this is wonderful.
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:44.639
Thanks.
00:35:44.800 --> 00:35:46.320
Yeah, it's a fun, it's a fun quest.
00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:48.800
You can see it's gonna take me a while to get to all those other states.
00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:52.239
I had several planned, and then that stupid pandemic came along.
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:54.559
I had like four states I was gonna hit that year.
00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:56.239
That darn pandemic.
00:35:56.880 --> 00:35:57.199
Look at that.
00:35:58.719 --> 00:36:00.800
Gator from a canoe or coyote.
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:01.679
Oh boy.
00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:10.639
Yeah, I was in uh Costa Rica years ago when I changed my career from technology to coaching, and big crocodiles.
00:36:10.719 --> 00:36:15.920
And I think I don't want to be anywhere in the water near a crocodile or an alligator for that matter.
00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:21.440
Oh, there were so many alligators there that was that see that guy you just went by, that young guy on the back of the kayak.
00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:22.400
We go down a minute.
00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:23.760
There he is, and he was Mike.
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:26.480
Um so he was like a local young guy, very quiet.
00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:29.840
And when we get in, I said, Should I worry about the alligators here?
00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:31.599
He's like, Oh no, they won't bother you.
00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:32.880
They just see you and go away.
00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:34.320
So we're paddling along.
00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:37.760
He's very quiet, and there's this giant alligator that just stays with us.
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:41.840
And after a while, he goes, Hmm, that's very unusual.
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:43.119
And I'm like, Oh god.
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:47.039
So he's probably thinking fresh meat dinner.
00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:48.320
That's right, that's right.
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:49.119
I love it.
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:53.519
Well, actually, like an or a nice grass-fed Oregon flavor.
00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:54.400
There you go.
00:36:54.559 --> 00:36:55.039
There you go.
00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:56.880
Grass-fed, it's the best.
00:36:57.199 --> 00:36:58.719
The SS Legacy.
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:03.760
Well, it looks like you're having fun and you're having experiences.
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:07.920
So I was with that's just where I kayaked was with Uncruise Adventures.
00:37:08.159 --> 00:37:09.760
Oh, Uncruise is so great.
00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:12.800
So did you flip your kayak in the in the freezing water?
00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:17.199
No, uh this was in the warm water of uh a river in Tennessee.
00:37:17.519 --> 00:37:18.239
Which better.00:37:18.559 --> 00:37:24.079
I made it into and out of a kayak twice when I was up with on cruise adventures.00:37:24.639 --> 00:37:25.199
Very good.00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:28.239
Well, they're they are they can be kind of unstable getting in or out.00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:29.519
So I'm not proud.00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:35.119
If I'm getting on into one or out of one on a dock, I just ask, I just asked somebody to hold on to it for me and I hold on to them.00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:40.159
There's there's no there's no there's no point in being heroic and doing it by yourself and following.00:37:41.599 --> 00:37:44.480
Yeah, there's doesn't even matter if you're in a boat.00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:46.719
If somebody offers you a helping hand, you take it.00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:48.559
That's what I that's what I always say.00:37:48.880 --> 00:37:52.079
Yeah, I usually like if I'm getting in or out of a boat, even if I don't need it.00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:54.079
If someone offers me their hand, I just take it.00:37:54.159 --> 00:37:55.920
Because what you're gonna say, no, I don't need it.00:37:56.079 --> 00:37:57.519
That's probably when you're gonna fall.00:37:57.760 --> 00:37:58.239
Yes.00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:05.679
Well, that's what I loved about Uncruises when you were going into and out of a skiff or the kayak, you always had helping hands.00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:06.480
So I love it.00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:08.000
Yeah, they're a great company.00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:08.559
I love them.00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:10.239
I've been with them a couple of times.00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:15.920
All right, I am gonna stop sharing and hopefully we will be back together.00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:17.920
The Miracle of Technology.00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:21.360
Well, thank you so much for the uh tour of the website.00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:30.239
It's always nice to show our listeners uh the up close and personal with the passions that our our guests have.00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:54.000
Before we head out today, I am curious as you kind of look back on your career and this those early years hunting for bugs underneath rocks in the in the in the uh back in the backyard to now creating these books uh uh uh on the travel handbook and sober travel handbook.00:38:54.880 --> 00:38:57.840
And also creating your art and doing your travels.00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:04.960
What's been your aha moment that like wow, you look back, you say, Wow, I get to do this.00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:09.519
I don't think there's really been one.00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:11.760
I think I have them all the time.00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:17.840
What's been exciting to me is that I continue to develop and discover new interests.00:39:18.079 --> 00:39:20.480
And part of that is is not drinking.00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:22.639
It gives me more time and more focus.00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:30.400
And I've just kind of learned to sort of, I guess, pay more attention to maybe what I what I want that I when I have a new interest.00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:34.480
Like for example, um, I never had any interest in scuba diving.00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:44.239
And then about three or four years ago, I was snorkeling and I realized I kept diving down deeper and looking at stuff from up close, and all of a sudden it's like, oh my God, I do want to be under the water.00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:48.559
So it was for my 56th birthday, I decided I will get scuba certified.00:39:48.639 --> 00:39:49.920
That will be my gift to myself.00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:54.639
So it's like your life is just this evolving work.00:39:54.800 --> 00:40:00.000
And sometimes we can think this is the kind of person I am, this is what I do, this is what I'm interested in.00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:04.239
But if you open yourself up a little bit, you may discover something else you like.00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:07.440
And you also may discover you don't like something, and that's okay too.00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:08.880
Like I tried to surf one time.00:40:09.039 --> 00:40:13.679
I mean, I'm sure it takes more than one time to be good, but it really did not go all that well.00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:22.639
So I like I like to keep um giving myself permission to try new things and to like them or not like them or be like, maybe.00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:24.000
Okay, very good.00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:25.920
I'll appreciate you sharing that.00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:42.559
Do you have any final advice or insight that you could share with our listeners before we head out today about again, just get out there, enjoy life, enjoy the experiences, and yes, you can do this alcohol-free.00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:59.840
Well, one thing okay, I look back to when people back back in the olden days, before so much technology, people um didn't have all this gear, they didn't have all this know-how, they didn't have all YouTube, and they didn't constantly have a picture of people doing things really, really well.00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:09.920
So, like they'd have a sing-along, and maybe everybody didn't have the greatest voice, or they play some sport together, and maybe everybody wasn't a great player or didn't have high-tech gear.00:41:10.159 --> 00:41:14.079
I think we need to give ourselves permission to do things a little bit, not not.00:41:14.239 --> 00:41:18.400
I've heard so many people say, like, oh, I tried that, but I wasn't good at it, so I never did it.00:41:18.480 --> 00:41:21.519
I might have said that about surfing, but I might give it another try.00:41:21.760 --> 00:41:24.800
But something, something that's like accessible to you.00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:28.239
If you're not good at it the first time, but you kind of like it, that's okay.00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:30.000
You don't have to be really great at everything.00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:31.599
Like I swim with a group of people.00:41:31.679 --> 00:41:33.920
We do open water swimming in the summer.00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:35.199
Decent swimmer.00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:37.280
Most of the people are faster than me.00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:39.280
I just wear fins to keep up.00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:42.239
It's not like I'm gonna say, oh, I'm not as fast as them.00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:44.400
I'm just gonna give up because I'm not as good a swimmer.00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:49.280
It's like for the enjoyment of it, of being with this group, of being outside, and doing something physical.00:41:49.440 --> 00:41:51.599
You don't have to be the best at something to enjoy it.00:41:51.679 --> 00:41:53.119
So that's what I would tell people.00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:54.000
I love it.00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:54.480
I love it.00:41:54.639 --> 00:41:55.840
Thank you for sharing that.00:41:56.079 --> 00:42:04.880
Now, before we head out, I know we are definitely going to uh provide a link back to your website, teresabergen.com.00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:10.400
I know, and I did notice on the website you had a number of social sites to send our listeners to.00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:14.719
Where else should we uh put backlinks to in our show notes?00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:20.639
Oh, maybe my maybe my publisher if they're interested in getting the sober travel book.00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:21.119
Okay.00:42:21.599 --> 00:42:25.440
Microcosal publishing, an independent publisher out of Portland, Oregon.00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:31.679
And if anybody is interested and wants to follow me on Instagram or Facebook or LinkedIn, kind of Okay.00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:32.320
Very good.00:42:32.400 --> 00:42:39.119
We'll provide those backlinks and you'll send me the the URL for your publisher, and we'll have those in our show notes.00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:41.760
Teresa, it's been a pleasure to have you on the podcast.00:42:41.920 --> 00:42:44.320
I'm glad we met through PodMatch.00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:48.320
I I should have mentioned that earlier when we did the uh introduction.00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:57.760
It's a great site to to find some really cool guests, and I'm so glad we crossed paths with each other and finally we're able to get a date set.00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:00.000
So thank you so much for joining me today.00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:01.119
Thank you, Howard.00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:02.800
It's been really fun talking with you.00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:03.440
Excellent.00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:04.639
Listen, stay in the line.00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:08.400
We're gonna do a very quick close, and then you and I can have a final chat.00:43:08.559 --> 00:43:08.880
Okay.00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:10.960
All right, folks.00:43:11.039 --> 00:43:13.039
We have just been chatting with Teresa Bergen.00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:24.719
She is a travel writer, outdoor enthusiast, author, vegan, yoga instructor, and just the of the world is definitely her oyster.00:43:24.880 --> 00:43:35.360
She is definitely the uh an accomplished author, and her latest book, Sober Travel Handbook, Navigating the World Alcohol Free, is a must read.00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:45.119
If either yourself or someone in your life would benefit from uh traveling sober free andor alcohol free for that matter.00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:55.679
We're going to provide all the backlinks uh of uh Teresa's work at her website, social sites in our show notes, as well as her publisher's website as well.00:43:55.920 --> 00:43:59.760
As for us, you can find this episode up on our website at outdooradventure.00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:01.599
Series.com.00:44:01.679 --> 00:44:06.639
We're also on LinkedIn and Facebook on the Outdoor Adventure Series.00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:07.840
Just do a quick search.00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:14.320
The video of this episode, which will include navigating Teresa's website, will be up on our YouTube channel.00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:18.800
And of course, you can listen to this episode wherever you get your podcast from.00:44:19.039 --> 00:44:24.480
Until next time, wherever you are, whatever you're doing, go out there and have a fantastic day.00:44:24.639 --> 00:44:31.039
And we look forward to having you join us on a future episode of the Outdoor Adventure Series podcast.00:44:31.119 --> 00:44:32.159
Take care now.
