Man’s Search for Sustainability: What Bees and Locusts Teach Us About a Sustainable Future

David Auge

Howard Fox: [00:00:00] Hello everyone. This is Howard Fox, and welcome back for another episode of the Outdoor Adventure Series, the podcast that celebrates individuals and families, businesses and organizations that seek out and promote the exploration stewardship.

Sustainability, access and enjoyment of the outdoors. David Oje is our guest today. David is a sustainability expert and author of Man's Search for Sustainability. He is a prominent figure in the field of environmental management, is on a, and is on a mission to transform humanity's approach to looking at sustainability issues.

David, it's a pleasure to have you on the podcast. Welcome.

David Auge: Howard, thank you very much. It's, uh, it's great to be here.

Howard Fox: Fantastic. And for our listeners, in the spirit of full disclosure, [00:01:00] I had the pleasure of getting to know, uh, David through our mutual sourcing site for guests and podcasters, uh, pod match. So, uh, I appreciate, uh, the fact that we've connected and, and here we are and really just. Wanna talk about this important topic.

And, uh, my first question for you, David, and, and I wanna learn more about you, your background, how you came to be so passionate about this topic, but a question I would typically ask towards the end of a podcast where we're talking about conservation, sustainability, wellness, is, do you have hope? Because so much is going on today, and I thought, why don't I just start with the end in mind as you have been diving into this topic.

It's a passion. You've got this wonderful book. What's your message for humanity? Is there hope here?

David Auge: That's an excellent question, Howard, and [00:02:00] perhaps even gets to the very heart of the title of the book that I have, which is Man's Search for Sustainability. You noted, uh, you know, before we even began talking about this, that, that Viktor Frankl has a similar book called Man's Search for Meaning. And it's from the reading of that book that I found this parallel search, uh, quite, um, quite helpful to those individuals that grasp the idea of sustainability and wanna move it forward.

The idea of hope can kind come to the forefront. If I can tell a story about Viktor Frankl, can I do so?

Howard Fox: sure. Please do.

David Auge: If your audience doesn't know this, but, uh, Viktor Frankl was an Austrian neurologist and psychologist who founded what he called the field of Logotherapy, which has been dubbed the third Viennese School of Psychology that's following Freud and Adler.

Now, logotherapy was developed and kind of, uh, put on the map through. Frankl's personal experience in the Theen Stott Nazi concentration camp [00:03:00] a as background, um, Viktor Frankl was Jewish and he found himself during World War II in three, uh, for three years in four different camps. It was Theen stat, Auschwitz, Caine, and Heim.

He was a doctor. And as a result, they put him into the infirmaries of those concentration camps and he had a chance while there to see individuals on their deathbeds and found that as they were having to struggle with the very fact that everything around them wanted them dead. That there was a reason why they were continuing to struggle for life.

And he writes in his book, which I found as a good parallel to what I wrote, that there were three justifiable reasons why these individuals had hope, uh, that wanted to see the next day. The first one was the fact that they had a person that they wanted to connect with outside the barbed wire fence, uh, the confine to the concentration camp that they were in.

[00:04:00] Second was that they had something inside of them, a, a song to sing, uh, music, to be written a book, uh, an idea that needed to be fleshed out so that the society in which they were currently in, even though everything around them wanted them dead, they needed to still, still get out. The third one was the reason, probably put on the table most effectively by Frankl, and that is that the third group felt that they were part of a larger purpose.

There was part of a, of a larger story of which they were only, uh, a segment of that story. And those individuals, even though everything around them wanted them dead, seemed to be some of the strongest of the groups that were in the infirmary who were close to death. But were still continuing to push forward day after day to understand the larger purpose of what they were doing.

I find a similar idea in the word of sustainability. So my book, man's [00:05:00] Search for Sustainability attempts to bring to the table that this term isn't a, a technical point, A-A-A-A-A destination. It's actually a part of a journey. Sustainability is more descriptive or normative in its strength, like the word meaning, uh, that if we can grasp, we can, we can move effectively forward through this.

Uh, the idea, the sustainability is something like beautiful or, or, um, attractive. You can become more or less beautiful. You can become more or less sustainable. You can understand that there's a, a term for sustainability that's a lot bigger than merely a, a grasping at some technological innovation that the society once in place will somehow make tomorrow a better day.

It's something much bigger than that.

Howard Fox: I appreciate that. All of the context you, you just shared and, and what the, the groupings that you also described of, of [00:06:00] Frankl's work and what he saw in, in a very horrific time, uh, is. And, and I, and I got to thinking about the one, you know, there's, there's folks out there that want to see us destroyed, uh, or perhaps, but the, and and in your book you were studying, say the honeybee and, and the locust.

And I know you're gonna go more into this. I mean, we. I don't think we very do a very good job of taking care, uh, uh, and realize the, the ultimate importance of the honeybee and or else we wouldn't be doing some of the things we're doing around the globe. Uh, whereas the locusts, I mean, this, we have the stories from the Bible.

We have the stories from the 18 hundreds, the, the, and the, the Dust Bowl, and. Of, and, and man just trying to destroy these things and they're, they're never gonna be destroyed in a way. They're, they're, they're gonna be there. And, and I really thought those, there's, there was those [00:07:00] parallels between humanity and sustainability.

How, when did you first begin to. I don't know. Was it a light bulb that went off? Some, uh, insight? I mean, folks that have picked up Viktor Frankl's book are deeply affected by it. Uh, when did you have this insight, this churn in your stomach or heart that said, I need to learn more and do more to inform people?

Mm-hmm.

David Auge: Well, it, it happened as trying to inform the individuals at the. Uh, at the places I've worked, uh, I've been in this particular, uh, well, I've been working within industry as an environmental and sustainability engineer for 35 years, and I find myself frequently trying to move the needle on why do anything.

Usually it's a, you know, a return on investment of course, is an easy one that most people would understand industry to take in an action one way or another. But as the younger [00:08:00] population moves into. Into the, uh, environment there, there's a lot more passion there. Passion though, that sometimes can become misplaced by a, a worship of nature as opposed to an understanding of our part in nature.

And I think that's what brought it to light because I found out that this camp, that this group of individuals, new employees, um, that are coming to. Coming to the table, um, need to see a larger picture of how nature can teach us things, um, than, than they currently are, are learning.

Howard Fox: Okay. The. How do we have that, that desire, that, that need to want to, want to continue to be a voice for educating and creating insight in others. When today we are under assault or science is under assault, uh, and it's it, and it's in some, in [00:09:00] some shape or fashion, there's a commitment to communicating.

To us that it's a hoax. Yet it's so important that, I mean, I, I, I believe in science. Uh, and again, I don't mean, also don't mean to be political at all, David, but you know, there's, there is this assault in this topic of sustainability. Oh, it's a, there's nothing to it. We should just keep doing what we're doing.

And here you are on a different, uh, path.

David Auge: Okay, well, uh, let's look at it from. Um, the perspective of how to view the world. Um, uh, in the book, in the first chapter, I talk about two particular terms that are used to think about the world. One's a, a mimetic, uh, type of view, and the other one's a poetic type of view. Uh, these are something that kind of, uh, have meat, uh, placed on them by Aristotle.

Let me give you an idea. [00:10:00] Mimetic view regards the world as having a given order and a given meaning, and thus sees human beings as required to discover that meaning and conform themselves to it. A poetic or poiesis, by way of contrast, sees the world as just so much raw material out of which. Meaning and purpose can be created by the individual.

Um, science one way or the other would look back or look forward if you wanted to use that particular term, uh, to, to be placed on the table. If you are looking at it from a mimetic point of view, you want to see the opportunities for, uh, uh, for, uh, biomimicry, uh, or the aspect of what the world we have around us that can teach us.

The reason why I put on the table honeybees and locusts because I think we can learn something from them that can be brought to the table effectively. Now, a poetic view says, ha, it's just a bunch of raw materials. Don't gimme this story about somehow we're connected to a larger [00:11:00] framework of, uh, of history that we need to fit ourselves into.

I believe the second point of view is the prominent point of view that's out there today. Because of its prominence. That's what I'm trying to address. Let's look at two different communities, very large communities, successful communities in their own rights, and let's learn from them. And hopefully by learning from them, we can get away from the political, uh, wrangling of, uh, he said, they said, she said whatever said, you know, we can, we can get a story that might swing the.

Mimetic viewpoint back into people's discussions,

Howard Fox: Okay.

David Auge: yeah.

Howard Fox: With the, so tell us more about the, say the, the, this. comparison of or studying of the honeybee and a locust, why is each of them unique and, you know, help our listeners [00:12:00] understand this.

David Auge: Okay, so Howard, you're asking why did I choose those two insect communities to, to bring to the table? Alright, well they are the extremes of human interaction. The honey bee is the bee of, or the insect of. 26 states, they, they have actually have an insect of the state and the honeybee more than than normal in the United States, is considered the insect that they're most proud of.

Now, that insect didn't come from the United States, it came from Europe, and it came from Africa. But because of its effectiveness, because of its reputation, because of its ability to demonstrate, um, diligence and perseverance. Many states have said, yep, that's the one. If you're, you're in Nevada. So right next to you is Utah.

And Utah, they actually have a honeycomb at the center of their ma their, uh, flag. So this is a pretty important insect in the view of most, on the other end of the spectrum is the desert locust. There are 10 [00:13:00] different locust species that can kind of do this, uh, um, shifting, uh, from a grasshopper to a locust.

And the desert. Locust is one of the most famous. This Locust is the most hated of insect communities, but we actually have a un run and funded operation that. Is, um, taxed with the, the purpose of getting rid of locust swarms as best they can or keeping them at bay so they don't in destroy entire communities.

You mentioned a biblical proportion. Well, that biblical proportion of destruction can occur even today if the UN's efforts of, you know, international, uh, support didn't keep that insect. Be under control. So why these two communities? One is hated, one is loved, one is thought to be the preeminent, uh, society that we would like to have, like in the state of Utah, to have it the center of the flag.

The other one is considered something that we just need to get away from and if possible, to destroy from the [00:14:00] planet Earth because of its impact on us.

Howard Fox: I'm wondering how the locust feel about that. 'cause they're, they the, they want to survive. They're looking for their food source and. They just, uh, find their way going from place to place, but be curious if, if they know how, how much they are, they are hated. As you have organized your book, uh, how I'd like to chat a little bit about that and what the reader will.

Yeah. As they open up the, they see the cover, they, they read the, the fore and then the organization of the text. And before we dive into that, David, when did this book begin to also take fruition for you? Like, there's a book here, I wanna write this, I need to write this. When did that begin to occur for you?

David Auge: Probably. Probably about four or five years ago, uh, it's when I [00:15:00] started to keep bees myself. I'm a beekeeper and we started to, um, uh, include that at the production facility where I currently work. We have 700 acres. We have six, uh, beehives. Uh, we have, uh, a number of individuals that go through be a training every single fall.

Um, and as a result, there's probably. Between 80 to a hundred individuals on the site within that, that operation that are rather skilled beekeepers or at least trained beekeepers. That started my interest and my input, and now I have bees at, uh, my own house. I've had from here for about the past four years that allowed me to start to, uh, to see just the, the fascination.

Uh, that most entomologists, I guess, have day in and day out from discovering what this insect can do. That's when it started. Howard and Howard, there was another contrasting element of, of a, of a, actually a sustainability group in Austria, Australia [00:16:00] that felt that this was the preeminent sustainable community and they used as the contrast of the most unsustainable community.

The desert locust. And as I started to look at the desert locust, I said, I think they've missed the boat. There is something really strong about this community. I, I mentioned that humanity wants it destroyed, but if you're a locust, well that's not what you want.

Howard Fox: No.

David Auge: And, and so I thought, let's look why they're successful.

I mean, why does this community seem to. Continue, you know, century after century, millennium after millennium in, uh, in growth, in, in, its, in its, uh, changes and, and whatnot.

Howard Fox: This might be a, a question. I mean, perhaps it's been asked before. It's a little, perhaps a little bit of a, my naivete at seven o'clock in the morning in, in, in, uh, Nevada with the locus. Is there [00:17:00] a. Is there something about them that keeps them thriving and this desire to go? I mean they're, it's, I would imagine it's like Maslow's hierarchy.

They need safety, they need, they need their health. They need to go find the food. Is man contributing to them or we just don't understand them and therefore we're gonna try to eradicate it. 'cause we don't like what happens when they're around us.

David Auge: No, let me give you a little, little bit of history about a desert locust that most don't, uh, know about the desert Locust is. A, uh, is an insect that goes through a phase change, a phase change that changes its appearance, its activities, uh, dramatically. Most of us would, uh, see a, a desert locust in, it's what's called a solitary or, uh, uh, it's, um, um, it's, um.

Quiet form as green. Very familiar in, uh, in appearance to what you would find in a [00:18:00] garden anywhere in the United States, but based upon an environmental impact, which first starts with a tremendous amount of opportunity that is rain, which creates a, an extreme growth in, uh, plant life. The desert locust grows, uh, its growth, uh, begins because of the additional food source and then followed.

By a drought, which has, uh, excess amount of insects, excess amount of this grasshopper and this particular insect finds its way in close contact with others, which result in its change in its. Personality and change in its actual physical form. It goes from green to yellow. Its brain size increases by a factor of 30%.

Instead of being very solitary, it becomes very gregarious. It doesn't fly at night. It flies during the daytime, during the daytime, during these flights. It continually seeks for what's called a center. It it, it looks like a swarm that's continuing to swarm toward [00:19:00] the very center where there seems to be a.

An element of intelligence, not a queen like you have in a beehive, but an el element of intelligence, which is helping it to look for, uh, uh, areas with lower pressure so it can fly downwind, so it can go to a next source, which would allow it to meet its appetite as a swarm and continue to grow even further.

Those particular elements, that phase change 30% of a brain size increase is because it now can see, and it can also, uh, develop odor, um, uh, it, its ability to smell increases as well, um, allows it to be just a, a phenomenal insect, uh, with a voracious appetite. Now, as an insect itself, as long as it stays within this group, it's successful.

We, on the other hand, are who it's going after our food supply, our farms, our communities. That is a strength. It has a, a strength that we can learn about, and my book talks about from about managing stress, allocating work, making decisions, [00:20:00] maintaining balance. Uh, and communicating all, all of those, I'm com I'm talking about both of those communities because they can be contrasted.

Um, uh, not that we wanna be one or the other, but we can learn from both because once again, we don't have as much of the, uh, intuitive drive as those communities appear to have.

Howard Fox: Sure. Well, since we've, we've given some time and, and more than I have ever known on the, on the side of the locust, so I want to thank you for that. Uh, my mom, may she rest in peace. She would be happy to know I learned something new today. 'cause she'd always ask, what did you learn in school today, Howard?

But tell us a little bit more then about the, the bees because, you know, we hold them on such a, a high pedestal. Uh, and I mean, we're, we're still afraid. We run away from them, but they are there. We need, we know we need them for our, for our, uh. Predominantly for our food supply. I mean, without them we would be in big trouble.

But what is it about their behaviors and their actions [00:21:00] and and, and how it's surviving? What are some of the uniqueness point, unique points that would be, uh, helpful for our listeners to know?

David Auge: Well, perhaps one that's easy, and many people might already know it, but I'll bring it to the table anyway, has to do with communication. Bees within that hive are merely a queen with all of the. Existing workers and even the drones, uh, her children. She is the only, uh, only, um, female in that hive, which can give birth to anything else.

So there's a relationship between those two and the communication within that hive. Many times it's just her health. Uh, if you would, the, the hive is continually trying to transmit the pheromones that she releases to the rest of the hive, which are asking the question, is the queen okay? Uh, is she all right?

Uh, does anybody know how the queen's doing? Is she stressed? Are we going to be doing something? Anyway, all those questions appear to be her communicating to the rest of the hive and the rest of the hive communicating to one another of her health, health. Also [00:22:00] within that hive, they have the unique ability to communicate where foraging should take place.

Now, foraging is the collection of pollen and honey and water brought to the hive so that they can prepare for the, the difficult times of the year, the, the winter months, the, the parts of the year, when. You're going to find yourself without the, the resources for the, the appetite there that is most best known as the, the dance that they do.

And the dance, of course, is either circular or figure eight and or its orientation on the flat portion of the, uh, the frames will indicate to the hives, I'm sorry, to the insects, the bees inside the hive, where to go and where to collect these resources that. That, that, that strength also is amazing for them to look for their next home.

Howard, one of the things that, uh, most people are most afraid of is swarming [00:23:00] bees. And they'll see in the month of April or May, this ball of bees surrounding a branch or a, any, anything that appears to be just a, a, a point of collection. I've got 'em on my roof. I've had 'em on post indicator valves, you know, which are near fire hydrants and the like.

Anyway. What happens is as those bees collect in a ball. When they're, when they're swarming, there is a change in the forager population that is those bees that are much more old, uh, uh, older than the rest, to go out and look for the next place they're gonna live. They within 48 to 72 hours will change, looking for honey and whatnot.

Uh, not honey looking for, for, for. You know, pollen and nectar, and they'll start to look for the proper location. A, a, a stump a, a tree, uh, um, uh, a roof area. And as they return, they will debate using that same type of configuration, uh, the [00:24:00] intensity of their belief that what they found is the best. This interaction, which is happening on the outside of that ball of bees is actually a debate.

That debate, which we can learn from. It, it decreases based upon the intensity of how strong those bees believe the home they found should be the next home. So after that period of time, the one with the strongest argument, the one saying, this is it, and then a few other forger bees going out and coming back saying, Hey, you know, this is the, this is the place and they're doing a similar dance.

We'll eventually convince that group of bees, usually about 20 to 30,000 where they're gonna go. And then those bees will lead. There's only a few of them. I mean, we're talking less than 1% of the entire population, that group to their new home. That's a communication asset that is just absolutely fascinating.

And what lesson do we get from that as humans? We get the, the willingness to, uh, move away from an idea because it's not the best idea. You know, we're not [00:25:00] gonna, we're not gonna die on this hill. Uh, these bees don't. They say, well, you know, this one's intensity of the argument indicates that they really do believe this is stronger.

And I have faith that this b has the same, you know, uh, uh, desire for the wealth and, uh, the strength of the hive that, uh, I would probably have. That's a strong part in communication for them.

Howard Fox: Thank you for that. I, again, I, I learned something more than to now than I came in with, so I truly appreciate that. How has your book. In its organization and the, and the information that's in it, how is it helping? Uh. Or how are you using this as a tool to help others like me who have a, a basic knowledge and there's always room to grow and learn more about what we can do in sustainability, conservation, stewardship.

But how are you using this book to help communities and families, and [00:26:00] especially young kids? Because assuming we, we like to say they are our future. You know, tough times right now. Very tough times. But how do we take, take this information you're providing in this book and help communities and families change their, their, their viewpoint, their perspective.

David Auge: Well, hopefully it's changing their viewpoint from a poetic view. That is, we're just a bunch of raw materials that if properly organized, everything's gonna be great into a mimetic view. That's. What's your, how are your, your websites all about, let's go out into nature. Uh, let's learn from what's around us, the biomimicry strengths that we can gain from a community.

Tremendous. I mean, one of the things that, uh, perhaps, I don't know if you've even touched upon this, but Michael Phelps, when he was able to gain all of those gold, gold medals, uh, was questioned about a swimsuit because the swimsuit and its design mimic the skin of a shark and the skin of a shark is much more [00:27:00] adaptable to speed than most other types of materials.

He was able to mimic that and result in a gain in his speed. Now, that's a very, perhaps simplistic viewpoint, but there are a lot of things out there. Someone can learn a lot from desert locusts and bees. Uh, I'd recommend for those people that are listening and, and I do at the place where I work, let's learn from the beehives.

Uh, they're out there. We can put 'em in a length straw box. You can easily. A gown so you feel safe from getting into these stings. And we'll go through the frames, get a chance to see how these work together, how in, uh, certain ways they, uh, acquiesce to the leadership of the queen. How they are, are willing to even die for the high of themselves as they stand at the front, as the, as the guard bees from other bees that want to go.

And even the negatives, um, lessons you can find out is the fact that they're, they're tremendous hoarders and also they're, uh, they wanna rob anything, even the hive next door. If you have a very passive hive and you have a very aggressive hive, one will attack [00:28:00] the other, and there you've got this war between bees that's happening right there in your midst.

All of those lessons can be learned right there within that community. And so open up the door. Let's learn.

Howard Fox: I love that just, uh, north of where I live, actually, south of where I live in Las Vegas, I, I, I ran outta honey and I, and if at all possible, I don't go into the grocery store to buy my honey and go find a local, uh uh, uh. Farmer that, that's raising bees, kind of like you are doing, uh, back home and just the, the nature of all these hives around it.

I never knew about the aggression, the territorial nature of it. And, uh, it's, again, it's just, it's fascinating and. Uh, I often think we, we sh it's kinda like being outta nature. I mean, you, you'd mentioned you had, uh, uh, we're listening to an episode I did with, uh, Barry, uh, uh, Shiel. Farb on, uh, uh, cancer and Nature and the Healing.

It said, I think if we just like stopped. Observed, listen, turn [00:29:00] off the cell phone just and watch. We could learn so much about interaction and, you know, getting along and, and, and helping make, making decisions and rather than just going walking forward blindly about. And kind of like this poetic view you were talking about.

We're just thinking the ground's here for me to walk on. I can do whatever I want, as opposed to the mimetic view of we're part of something much bigger. What has been your, your own aha, what I would call an aha moment? As you look back, this book has been published. You've got great reviews on Amazon, by the way.

I, you, I, I, it's funny when I look for. When I'm looking to buy something, say on Amazon, I always look at the, who are the one star and two star reviews, and then the always, I also look at the, the fives and the fours, but you've got some great reviews out there. And what are you learning about people's [00:30:00] appetite for books?

Like you have written Man's Search for Sustainability and, and, and Great. And how is that affecting you as, as also as a someone who's. Very highly educated. You're working in some very tough, uh, environments in the work that you do. You've got the bees. What are you learning about yourself and other people's view of this work you've produced?

David Auge: Well, perhaps I'm learning most about the fact that we need a carrier story. In order to communicate our ideas, uh, the book that I wrote, I, I begin each and every chapter with a, a personal vignette that hopefully puts on the table the experience that will bring home the idea of these two communities.

You talked about cancer. I have a, a son, actually, I'm in his room and that's why I've got this background as opposed to, well. His bed is made. Okay. But I, I've got

Howard Fox: I like the [00:31:00] background

David Auge: in. Okay. My son had leukemia and at the age of three, uh, my wife and I found him once again. Uh, and it was also, uh, tied with osteomyelitis, um, which is a bone disease.

But we found ourselves, uh, at, at, at his age of three, uh, with a very, very. Difficult situation to go through. And Howard, the difficulty had to come through, not with only watching his head, you know, lose all its hair and his eyebrows fall out, all the, the rest of it. But the fact that when we were there at the hospital, the, the, the, uh, uh.

Healthcare professional was sitting down saying, how are we doing? And we said, well, you know, we're, we're doing fine. It's our son who's in the midst of, uh, combating leukemia. And she looked at us and says, you know, it's you. I'm talking to, how are you doing? And we said, we're, we're doing fine. And then she said, we ordeal.

You're going to go through three and a half to four years of leukemia. Being [00:32:00] combated with, with, uh, chemotherapy is going to result in about 60 to 70% of those families getting divorced or going bankrupt. So you and your wife have a very strong chance of not being married in four years, your financial situation being destroyed.

And as a result, my wife and I looked at each other. We held our hands tightly, and we started to think, well, how are we gonna do this? And we sold everything that didn't. That, that we could, so that we didn't have a mortgage on anything, that we could handle any medical bills that came our way. That, uh, what was gonna happen in our family, we were gonna bat down the hatches and make sure that, uh, we got through it and we got through it stronger.

You know, part of the situation about balance intention is that these difficulties actually make you stronger. The difficulties we place on, on the locusts, uh, actually makes them a really tremendously strong community. That's why [00:33:00] it takes so much to destroy them. But the difficulty they have, they have to confront are actually to their benefit.

And that's one of the things that I've learned through this as well.

Howard Fox: Very good. Well, I, I appreciate you, you sharing that and, and you know, you, you just raised a point as, as you shared that is I ap uh, the, this healthcare provider said, how are you doing and giving you a ta a uh, kind of a view into what the future could be. And if you don't go in it. With your eyes wide open, you're not prepared for it.

And so this preparation kind of helped you adapt and survive. And, uh, and, uh, so again, I truly appreciate it. David, it's been a pleasure to have you on the podcast. And I, I, I've learned so much and I mean, the book is fascinating and I, I'm sure our, our, our listeners, those that are especially in the outdoor space of which, um.

I don't get outdoors as much as I would like. Uh, but I do talk to a lot of people who are very much, [00:34:00] uh, into the, the outdoors and this, this idea of connecting through nature, whether it's navigating an illness and just walking in the sand, walking down the path barefoot and the healing power of nature.

And now you've, you've shared with us another aspect of nature is. Other beings and, you know, uh, life essences that are there, the bees, the locusts. And we need to stop and, and listen under view, understand, rather than just plowing over things because we think that's, that's what we should be doing. So I thank you so much for spending time with us today.

David Auge: sure, sure.

Howard Fox: Uh, before we head out, if our listeners would like to learn more about you and your work, the book, where are the best places to go?

David Auge: I have a website, uh, David Oje books. Com and that would be the best place for them to, uh, to go to. I'm in the process of writing a another book. Uh, so books plural is actually a motivation, so you'll see others about sustainability in there [00:35:00] as well.

Howard Fox: Excellent. Before, one last question before we head out. If our listeners are on this. Uh, have going about their daily lives and they come across this podcast and listen to it, what would you like them to think about or do to, to change their trajectory of going from this po POIs view to this nomadic view?

What, what would you like for them to what? To take action on.

David Auge: What would I like them to take action on? Perhaps Howard, your point about slowing down and looking at the world they have around them would be a part of that. Perhaps also is the quote that that, um, um, Vitor Frankl uses frequently in this book. And I have on the back of mind from Nietzche, which says he who has a why to live for can bear almost any how he who has a why to live for [00:36:00] can bear almost any how grasp for that why.

And, and when you've got that, uh, you'd be amazed at how much you can handle in this life that's been given to us.

Howard Fox: I love it. Thank you so much. This has been a fascinating interview. I hope you have enjoyed, uh. Yourself, as much as I have enjoyed getting to know you and your work and just a, a wonderful book, and it's, it's so needed today more than ever, uh, given our circumstances, we are all in. Uh, and, uh, again, we wish you best, best of luck and good luck with the new book and hopefully we'll cross paths again.

So thank you.

David Auge: Great. Thank you Howard.

Howard Fox: Alright, listen, stay in the line for a quick second and we're gonna do a quick close and you and I can have a final chat.

David Auge: Okay.

Howard Fox: Alright folks, we have just been chatting with David oj. Uh, David is a sustainability expert and author of Man's Search for Sustainability. You know, very poignant topic today.

Uh, it's not all about the hiking trails and [00:37:00] shooting and stargazing and birdwatching, but this idea of our connection to nature and our impact on it and using the, the stories and the, in the learnings I should say about the honeybee and the locust to inform. Why we should care about the, our surroundings and our impact on it and what we can do to, uh.

At least appreciate and understand why sustainability is important and also understand perhaps, unintentionally the impact that we are having, uh, on our future and even our families and our communities, and our, our our children's future. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Uh, please do go out to David's website, david oj books.com, uh, where you'll find a lot of information about David, his background.

Uh, obviously the book and perhaps even in the future. The next book he is going to be writing now our, uh, episode will be found on our website, outdoor adventure [00:38:00] series.com. We are also on LinkedIn and Facebook, and the video of this episode, uh, will also have up on our YouTube. Uh, channel now. Uh, you can also find this episode wherever you get your podcast from.

So we love likes, comments and sharing. And before we head out too, I want to thank our good friends at Pod Match for helping to facilitate this introduction between, uh, the Outdoor Adventure Series and David and his work. So. A great resource for finding some great and very interesting, talented guests, so we appreciate that.

Until next time, folks, wherever you are, whatever you're doing, go out there. Have a fantastic day, and we look forward to having you join us on the future episode of the Outdoor Adventure Series Podcast. Take care now. [00:39:00]